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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2011 : 04:11:05 AM
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We would only be concerning ourselves with initialing requirements as it relates to loan signings (as an NSA) - with general notary work, advice in how to 'correctly' initial would be outside the notary's scope and could be misconstrued.
With regard to loan signings, the requirements for initialing are propriety to the lender and the title/settlement agent, respectively. As with signatures, the LEGAL definitions are quite broad and usually logical, while lenders can often be far more particular & (IMO) far less logical.
My background includes extensive experience in Wholesale Lending, which gave me a pretty broad knowledge base. (We worked with 5 or 6 Investors, 600 title agents and nearly 1000 mtg brokers - very broad experience.) With regard to initialing, I can tell you what I required or would refuse, and this can be taken as coming from one end of a horse (you decide which!).
1. Love initialing squiggles that are illegible, as long as they are CONSISTENT. (Same with signatures - again, consistency is a MUST.)
2. HATE initialing on pages that were not required to be initialed! There are REASONS behind what lenders ask for or don't ask for, whether or not WE understand the reasons. More is not always better!
3. With legible initialing, I needed to see each component of the name signed represented, including suffixes that are part of the actual name (Jr., Sr., III for example). If there was a middle initial or middle name used in the signature, I needed an initial to represent that. I didn't need to see any 'spaces' between anything, and again - CONSISTENT throughout the package.
This could be satisfied in a variety of ways. For example, Betty-Jean Sue O'Conner could be BSO, or BJSO, or BSOC. It could NOT be BJO (middle name not represented). See the pattern? Would I send it back to be re-done? Not likely, but it would require me to do extra work on the file to ensure the Investor would accept it.
What WOULD I send back? Anything that was completely inconsistent - signatures or initialing - IF it was on a particularly sensitive document, and I couldn't make it fly otherwise. While everyone's hand-writing varies somewhat from page to page, it's not that hard to spot "what doesn't fit?". Because frauded signatures and initialing is so prevalent, the best practice (as the lender) is to send back anything that obviously does not fit. FWIW, something else that got sent back rather often were signatures & initialing that included "titles" - particularly "Dr." and "Rev." These are NOT part of a person's name, but those two particular professional titles seemed to work their way in rather often.
In summary, my two cents - a lack of feedback is NOT always an indication your 'work' was perfect or even all that much. One of the title agencies that I dealt with, in fact, is one of those notorious for $50 signings - RARELY were those pkgs even partially correctly done. Getting a pkg from them always elicited a groan. This goes to the crux of how those types stay in business - I rarely sent things back to re-do, because there is no TIME for such *stuff*. If I really needed something fixed, I'd send it direct to the borrower myself more often than not, far more expedient. I NEVER in my entire 'inside' career contacted any notary. While I did 'ix-nay' title agencies relative to pkgs, it was only ever for out-and-out/repeated 'suspected' fraud (we never accused, never used that word even) and never just for lousy work. WHY? Because wholesale lender's cater to their clients (as do all businesses), and the client of the W-lender is the mortgage broker - who is the one with the relationship to their choice of title agents, but I digress ...oh boy, do I digress! |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2011 : 4:09:00 PM
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Jeremy, you raise some interesting issues. I have not found any formal standards for initialing either. That is the reason for my initial post, to, with the aid of my fellow forum members; define a "best practices" methodology.
I totally overlooked the "suffix" issue in my initial post. IMHO the suffix is part of the "initial string" and should be separated - by a space - from the letters of the initials; as previously described. IMHO the space is necessary to indicate the end of the "name" initials and the start of a trailing suffix; eg: Jr. Sr. I II III etc.
I too have done thousands of signings, and unless the initials are missing - most automatically consider whatever is there - legible or not to meet the requirement. I also have never heard of initials that are present being a source of concern.
As there are no known (to either you or me) "formal standards for initialing" - the intent of this post is to define "best practices".
I ask my fellow forum members for their thoughts on the methodology that I use; seeking a better and more definitive answer. I think:
Robert Smith-Jones Parker III should use "RSP III" as that complete string would differentiate that individual from his father "RSP II".
I am not attempting to "set a standard", or give "legal advice" - I only want to request guidance from the Forum on doing it right.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2011 : 1:48:17 PM
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As far as the notary profession goes, I have never read anything anywhere that indicates what the formal standards for initiailing are. Should middle initials be included? What about a Jr. as a suffix, is it mandatory? What if there is a name change, and both name variations are used in the same document?
In my eight years as a very active signer, and having signed roughly 4000 loans, nobody has ever made an issue with ANY initials that "my" borrowers ever drew. I also have never heard of any document notarized by any other notary being rejected due to initialing issues.
I have also heard that people working at title companies often will initial on behalf of a borrower should the borrower forget. It is easier than sending the documents back to the borrower. This is illegal and completely dishonest and undermines the whole reason for initialing in the first place.
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Notary007
60 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2011 : 11:04:46 AM
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So, you don't consider Black's Law Dictionary a reputable legal reference book? What do you use?
Do your own research to see if there is any NY case law. If there are no prior NY cases, the first case is known as a case of First Impression, and courts look at how other states have ruled, such as the NJ case cited. Did you look up the NJ case to see for yourself? |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 11:42:38 PM
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Alas your reference is to New Jersey law and I am a NY notary. BTW: do you have a link for YOUR web site?
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Notary007
60 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 11:10:38 PM
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Rather than create your own definition of what proper initials are, you can refer to a legal reference or court rulings. Black's Law Dictionary: Initial- That which begins or stands at the beginning. The first letter of a man's name. See Elberson v Richards, 42 N.J. Law, 70.
Notaries should not render a legal opinion. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 11:06:40 AM
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Today I notarized some documents for (name slightly changed) Mr. John Thomas O'Connor. As several documents required his initials I asked for his JTO at the bottom of the page. To my surprise he told me that his initials were not JTO; and that he always initials JOC. What about your middle name of Thomas, I asked. Oh, I never use that, he replied.
So, with hoof firmly in mouth; I write this post on the subject of getting the initials right. I have been a mobile notary for 10+ years, and have never been able to find a definitive guide to getting proper initials. I called the NNA, they said to follow state laws! Well, in the NY State notary code there is no guideline to getting the initials correctly.
Please recall I said "with hoof in mouth"; so I present to you my "opinion" as to how proper initialing is done. I have devised my own simple and easy to apply "rule" as to proper initialing. The key is to consider a "space" between name "components" (soon to be defined) as the delimiter between name components. A name "component" is any name, first, middle, second middle, more middle?, last - that does NOT contain a space. It can contain any special character such as the hyphen (-) or apostrophe (').
Some examples of IMHO names followed by their "proper" initials.
Brenda Jane Fuller BJF
Sue-Ann Carol O'Doner SCO
Sandra Betty-Jean Smith SBS
Fred O'Flarety George Klein FOGK
Thus my "rule" is simple. I take the first letter of each name component - that is the entire rule - nothing more - nothing less. Every time there is something after a "space" the first letter of that component is added to the string of initials. It is my OPINION that ONLY a "space" separates name components.
Some, and I have had this discussion with many, would consider the second name (above) to have SACO or SACOD as the proper way to initial - their logic being that all "relevant name (sub?)components" should be "addressed".
I ask the distinguished and knowledgeable members of this august forum to comment and critique my analysis. And, if possible, submit their own "rule" for getting proper initials.
Standard Disclaimer: My scribbles are not intended as legal or any other form of advice. They are merely intended to stimulate the readers cerebellum to direct their typing fingers into affirmative action.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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GTRI - Getting The RIGHT Initials
