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 Refusal to backdate = borrower losing house?
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13601

Florida
3 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2012 :  06:56:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit 13601's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by notaryslife

What do 99.999% of the notaries do in this situation?

Sincerely yours,


Notary's Life


I realize 99.999% do it, but it IS criminal in most if not all states, and if I catch it being done, I have and will continue to file complaints. I filed a complaint on notary in 2006 for back-dating & altering a mortgage, then it reared its' ugly head in 2010, and I stated the document be foreclosed upon, while it had my purported notary stamp and signature I didn't sign or stamp it. It all stemmed from a request to back-date which I refused.

Ronald Gillis
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crtowles

California
539 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2012 :  11:22:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To Notarys Life...

Let hope the 99.9999% don't back date. PERIOD. And If you change dates to your notary certificate to something other than when your client appeared before you is considered fraud on your part.

Carmen
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notaryslife

California
348 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2011 :  5:15:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What do 99.999% of the notaries do in this situation?

Sincerely yours,


Notary's Life
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13601

Florida
3 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2011 :  07:44:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit 13601's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jbelmont

With an Acknowledgment, you can always tear up the original certificate and add another one without seeing the signer again as far as I know -- so long as the date on the acknowledgment is the same as the date of the journal entry. I don't know what Florida says about that though.


Yikes, in nearly ALL states, if not all, this is called FRAUD. This is a good part of why we are in the mess we are in this country!! This type of conduct has become accepted as commonplace and acceptable - IT IS NOT! It is ILLEGAL in most, if not ALL states as you are creating fraud - fraud is a deception. Dan & Linda yes in both FL & CA forbid this, as well as most other states if not all. You are stating that this certificate, the notarization, person before you, etc., everything happened as stated, when stated, but by creating the certificate days (or however later) is FRAUD. It is no different than the "robo-signed" documents associated with fraudclosures, "it's the way we do it", "my boss told me to" and we are "surrogate signers" and what ever other spin that can be made up, bottom line - CRIMINAL. Look @ NV leading the way in breaking this open, and other states will hopefully follow. When (not IF) this type of behavior is discovered, people will go to jail. Not worth it, period.

Edited by - 13601 on 12/11/2011 07:45:03 AM
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kronhead

5 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2011 :  10:07:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit kronhead's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:

In FL, any change to the cert would require a revisit to the signer - so the original cert would have the original date and the second one would have the later date. Our manual is very specific about after the fact corrections - it just can't be done without seeing the signers again - and obviously, backdating is out. If only one date is showing up someone's in trouble.




CA is the same about no changes, revisits, and no backdating - and I am not sure I have ever had a revisit - but wouldn't the original cert get thrown away? Or would it get marked in some way to say it is not valid, but left with the document? I think the CA regs simply say no changes, and no backdating - nothing about handling the invalid cert.

Thanks
Dan

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LindaH

Florida
1618 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2011 :  12:06:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit LindaH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kronhead

Sorry if this goes through twice ...

quote:
Originally posted by LindaH

I can just hear the borrower on the witness stand explaining that yeah, we signed but the notary had to come back a second time a few days later because there were mistakes; "Oh, so you signed twice?" "Yes".."Interesting...the acknowledgement only shows the one date..




Linda - not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that on a re-signing of a doc, the ack should have TWO dates? Never heard or seen that ...

I am in CA.
Dan





Yeah, that was pretty muddy wasn't it?

In FL, any change to the cert would require a revisit to the signer - so the original cert would have the original date and the second one would have the later date. Our manual is very specific about after the fact corrections - it just can't be done without seeing the signers again - and obviously, backdating is out. If only one date is showing up someone's in trouble.



Linda
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com
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kronhead

5 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2011 :  06:19:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit kronhead's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry if this goes through twice ...

quote:
Originally posted by LindaH

I can just hear the borrower on the witness stand explaining that yeah, we signed but the notary had to come back a second time a few days later because there were mistakes; "Oh, so you signed twice?" "Yes".."Interesting...the acknowledgement only shows the one date..




Linda - not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that on a re-signing of a doc, the ack should have TWO dates? Never heard or seen that ...

I am in CA.
Dan

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edelske

New York
749 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2011 :  07:13:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit edelske's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I think we have to be careful here to NOT let the "consequences" of following our state's law dictate our course of action. As Linda mentioned prison food is not good. If you made a mistake, that is what your E&O coverage is for. In 10+ years of doing this, I have never been in a courtroom; nor do I intend to. This thread should serve as a strong reminder that we are indeed public officials; with responsibility for our actions. In other words: Double check what you do - be sure it is flawless. Take the time (a matter of minutes in most cases) to avoid errors. Many of the transactions are way over the general E&O coverage; as the Police say at "roll call" - "Let's be careful out there".

Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com
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LindaH

Florida
1618 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2011 :  03:43:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit LindaH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PlsSign

The AZ Notary Reference Manual states:

If any part of the notarial certificate is incorrect, the notary public should either cross out and initial the incorrect words with ink or cross out the entire wording and type or write in the correct wording. Do not attempt to erase or use correction fluid or tape.
All changes should be initialed.


So it seems, in AZ this notary could have just corrected the Ack.



But does your manual say anything about after-the-fact corrections? Do "future" changes/corrections have to be made in the presence of the signers? Can you provide amended/corrected certificates without revisiting the signers?

I read that portion of your manual as applying to changes made prior to notarization - maybe I'm reading it incorrectly but that's how I interpret that. WE're allowed the same latitude here - if any portion of the certificate is incorrect we have to correct it prior to notarization - however, after the fact, no changes can be made to anything.


Linda
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com
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PlsSign

Arizona
24 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2011 :  6:54:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The AZ Notary Reference Manual states:

If any part of the notarial certificate is incorrect, the notary public should either cross out and initial the incorrect words with ink or cross out the entire wording and type or write in the correct wording. Do not attempt to erase or use correction fluid or tape.
All changes should be initialed.


So it seems, in AZ this notary could have just corrected the Ack.
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LindaH

Florida
1618 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2011 :  12:17:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit LindaH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I suppose you can do whatever you want - but do you really want to skirt the law like that? I can just hear the borrower on the witness stand explaining that yeah, we signed but the notary had to come back a second time a few days later because there were mistakes; "Oh, so you signed twice?" "Yes".."Interesting...the acknowledgement only shows the one date..

Bye bye notary.....I'll follow my laws, thank you - I hear prison food is nothing to rave about.

Linda
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com
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jbelmont

California
2638 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2011 :  11:48:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit jbelmont's Homepage  Reply with Quote
With an Acknowledgment, you can always tear up the original certificate and add another one without seeing the signer again as far as I know -- so long as the date on the acknowledgment is the same as the date of the journal entry. I don't know what Florida says about that though.

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LindaH

Florida
1618 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2011 :  03:40:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit LindaH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PlsSign


So in FL an ack. can not be corrected even if it was initially executed with wrong date? So the initial ack. would be null and void? What a mess.

Just curious. I always trust yours (and the late PAW's) advise.

I got the impression this took place in CA. Have never run into it here in AZ. Knock on wood.





Yes - per our manual, page 29. http://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/notary/ref_manual23-40.pdf

"Corrections

When necessary to correct information already printed in the notarial certificate, i.e., the date, the name of the person whose signature is being notarized, do not use correction fluid. Simply mark through the incorrect information and make the change before you complete the notarization. You should probably initial that change, also. Once you “complete” the notarization and return it to the document signer, you may not amend your certificate. For instance, if you forgot to state the type of identification or affix your seal and the document is returned to you on a later date by the receiving party, you may not correct your error. The document will require re-notarization, including the presence of the document signer."

Linda
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com
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PlsSign

Arizona
24 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2011 :  7:14:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

So in FL an ack. can not be corrected even if it was initially executed with wrong date? So the initial ack. would be null and void? What a mess.

Just curious. I always trust yours (and the late PAW's) advise.

I got the impression this took place in CA. Have never run into it here in AZ. Knock on wood.

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LindaH

Florida
1618 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2011 :  2:42:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit LindaH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Correction of the cert would not be allowed in FL no matter whose fault it is - it would require another visit to the borrowers/signers and the ack would have to bear the date of the second notarization.

Linda
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
http://www.columbiacountynotary.webs.com
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jbelmont

California
2638 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2011 :  2:15:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit jbelmont's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm reading this interesting post on NR's forum.
I'm going to retell the story in my words.

A notary goes to a closing, and the instructions say not to change any docs without calling the title or signing company. The notary changes the DATES on the purchase documents without calling in. However, she FORGETS to change the date on the notary certificate wording on the MORTGAGE (oops) to the correct date.

The borrower signs on the actual date of the signing, but the notary certificate wording has the previous date.

The notary goes on vacation, refuses to fix the issue. The borrower might lose their house because the loan won't fund.

It is not backdating for the notary to change the date on the certification to the actual date the document was notarized. Actually, what happened was that the notary backdated BY MISTAKE and won't fix the dates to reflect the actual date of the signing.

What a crazy story!!!!

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