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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2012 : 06:20:51 AM
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Bravo! Very well written! Dan, consider writing for NNA (they need your clarity and understanding of what it means to IDENTIFY (our first duty) the person to be notarized).
quote:
Originally posted by Dannotary
Having been a notary here for 29 yrs, I am only addressing California notaries. We can only notarize the name that appears on the ID's that our state approved which are DL, passport, state ID issued ID card, inmate card only for those incarcerated while incarcerated. Two credible witnesses are also ok who present with valid ID as above state requirements. The name they sign, can be the same as or LESS than what is on the ID but not MORE THAN or DIFERENT than the ID name. In cases of double last names, hyphenated or not, the last of the two last names is considered to be the LAST NAME, just like is says on the new California DL format it has a "ln" which means 'last name'. Both names must be used on the notary certificate. LESS than doesnt apply for last names. Plain and simple and it IS in the state handbook and the NNA legal department will agree.
For loan docs, I tell them that the lenders want them to sign exactly whaty is on the line they dont care what your normal signature is, and if they have an illegible scribble thats ok with me. I also have them include on the Sig Affidavit any variations of name and I notifiy the signing company of the discrepancy and that I WILL be notarizing the name that is on the ID or LESS than but NOT MORE than or DIFFERENT than.
In spite of what loan agents will argue and try and intimidate you into believing, The Sig Affidavit does NOT protect the notary, we still must not swear that someone appeared who doesnt match the ID name. The Sig Aff is THEIR affidavit that they are also known as, but the person who appeared before us is the one whose name is on the ID and therefore, the only person who we can say appeared.
Many borrowers and signing co's, title co's, and lenders tell me often, that "gee, no other notary ever had a problem with this,(doc name being different than ID name) like when they bought the house or refied the last time". I just tell them that I am sorry the previous notary committed a felony,and did them a disservice. Leads me to believe that in my own area there are many making grave mistakes. They dont know better or are afraid to create 'problems' for fear of not getting any more assignments.
We also may NOT use 'corroborating docs' like birth and marriage certs, credit cards, photo or not, etc, because they are NOT approved as ID sources by California for purposes of notarization. It doesnt matter if you are reasonably sure thats who they are, it has been made black and white here, no gray areas or wiggle room.
Case closed- punto final.
Kenneth A Edelstein
Mobile Notary, Apostille / Legalization Processing & Fingerprinting
http://www.kenneth-a-edelstein.com |
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Dannotary
California
265 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2012 : 3:01:44 PM
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| Call the NNA and discuss about the two last names, they will tell you and confirm what I am saying. Smith-Jones or Smith Jones, cannot just be Smith, it has to be Jones also, Jones is the last, last name. |
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Dannotary
California
265 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2012 : 07:49:34 AM
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| On the new Calif DL's, there is a little 'ln' which means 'last name' and according to the NNA, this is the last , last name, otherwise its like saying Mary Jane signed, no last name. It has to be the last, last name. Not just pick one or the other last name. THere is only ONE last name, the first of the two surnames is like a middle name. |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 03:16:09 AM
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Dan, can you cite either your handbook or statutes to support your statement below:
"LESS than doesnt apply for last names. Plain and simple and it IS in the state handbook ..." |
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Dannotary
California
265 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 09:44:45 AM
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Having been a notary here for 29 yrs, I am only addressing California notaries. We can only notarize the name that appears on the ID's that our state approved which are DL, passport, state ID issued ID card, inmate card only for those incarcerated while incarcerated. Two credible witnesses are also ok who present with valid ID as above state requirements. The name they sign, can be the same as or LESS than what is on the ID but not MORE THAN or DIFERENT than the ID name. In cases of double last names, hyphenated or not, the last of the two last names is considered to be the LAST NAME, just like is says on the new California DL format it has a "ln" which means 'last name'. Both names must be used on the notary certificate. LESS than doesnt apply for last names. Plain and simple and it IS in the state handbook and the NNA legal department will agree.
For loan docs, I tell them that the lenders want them to sign exactly whaty is on the line they dont care what your normal signature is, and if they have an illegible scribble thats ok with me. I also have them include on the Sig Affidavit any variations of name and I notifiy the signing company of the discrepancy and that I WILL be notarizing the name that is on the ID or LESS than but NOT MORE than or DIFFERENT than.
In spite of what loan agents will argue and try and intimidate you into believing, The Sig Affidavit does NOT protect the notary, we still must not swear that someone appeared who doesnt match the ID name. The Sig Aff is THEIR affidavit that they are also known as, but the person who appeared before us is the one whose name is on the ID and therefore, the only person who we can say appeared.
Many borrowers and signing co's, title co's, and lenders tell me often, that "gee, no other notary ever had a problem with this,(doc name being different than ID name) like when they bought the house or refied the last time". I just tell them that I am sorry the previous notary committed a felony,and did them a disservice. Leads me to believe that in my own area there are many making grave mistakes. They dont know better or are afraid to create 'problems' for fear of not getting any more assignments.
We also may NOT use 'corroborating docs' like birth and marriage certs, credit cards, photo or not, etc, because they are NOT approved as ID sources by California for purposes of notarization. It doesnt matter if you are reasonably sure thats who they are, it has been made black and white here, no gray areas or wiggle room.
Case closed- punto final. |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 06:12:02 AM
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Agree with Lee - and I've yet to see a single statute in any state's notarial law that requires the printed "legal" name on ID to match the name used on the document being notarized.
Interestingly enough, the CA statutes do not list ANY requirement for "printed name" as one of the components of acceptable ID. Certainly, a printed name is one of the standard components of ID, but laws are not written around assumptions, and each/every word is to be taken literally.
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marannjohn
Florida
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:13:07 PM
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Having worked for attorneys for many years, my thinking is that the instrument should have been prepared correctly, for example, David L. Jones a/k/a David Jones. Title companies have been working with misnomers for many years, and also should know how to provide an Affidavit that David L. Jones is the same person as David Jones (Same Name Affidavit).
That should solve the problem.
Marcia Johnson |
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notary50
2 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2012 : 11:54:56 AM
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I was at a signing and the borrower didn't have proof of middle initial anywhere (birth certificate, passport, ss, DL, etc.) then told me that it isn't really their middle name. Talked to the Title Company and they told me it had to be signed with the middle initial as that's how it was on the previous Deed and they would send another notary out to get the loan signed. The borrower said they've done it this way before, why a problem now?
My question: Why did the notary on the previous Deed, notarize a name that wasn't on any ID? Why can't the name be changed on the loan to reflect the correct name rather than to continue with an incorrect name? |
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Lee-AR
Arkansas
678 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 05:11:14 AM
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The NNA 'answers' reflect their thinking...which is NOT necessarily what the LAW is in any particular state. You are far better advised to follow the law of your state.
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JillianNSA
Missouri
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 10:02:32 AM
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Here is what National Notary Assoc. says to do:
"NNA QUIZ QUESTION:
When filling out a signer's name on an acknowledgment certificate, the name should:
a. Be written to match how it appears on the ID presented to the Notary.
b. Be written as it appears on the signer's birth certificate.
c. Be left off the notarial wording if the signer requests privacy.
d. Match the signer's signature, but should not be written in the Notary's journal.
ANSWER: A) The name of the signer written in an acknowledgment wording should always match the way the name appears on the ID the signer presents to the Notary. Even if an "AKA" signature using two different forms of the signer's name is written on the document, only the version appearing on the ID should be included in the certificate wording."
Notaries should always be alert for minor discrepancies in the way a signer's name appears on IDs, documents or signatures. If you're unsure, it's better not to proceed.
Jillian NSA |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 07:45:27 AM
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I did some research on Florida Notary Laws. This is what I found directly from the Secretary of State Office which is the agency that makes and enforces Notary Laws and Rules. Please look down the page to find this question:
What should I do if a person produces identification with a name different from the name being signed?
http://notaries.dos.state.fl.us/education/faq/index.html#Misc
In these instructions nothing is mentioned about extra names you find on documents. They refer to information that is not up to date or one that has married and changed her name.
Regardless, loan companies are specific in that the name must match the ID. Laws may be less stringent than the rules of a lender but their rules still need to be followed and respected completely. Lenders put these rules in place to ensure that they are providing services to the correct person. For you to be successful you need to take both the law and the lender's rules into account otherwise you are not being truly faithful to your responsibility as a Mobile Notary. I certainly would not want to contract with someone who was not willing to adhere by my rules as well.
Back in the day, you never would have heard of a mobile notary. Society has changed its way of thinking and operating and now provides the borrower with the convenience and comfort of signing in their own home. As Notaries we are Officers of the Court. You don't get to be one if you are not willing to adhere to the rules and law. The court does background checks on us and makes certain we are who we say we are. Do you think we get would get our commissions if we had names that were similar than who we claimed to be?
A notary is a prominent member of the legal community and needs to be held as such even if it means we have to turn someone away because we are unsure of their identity. The system depends highly on us to make sure everything is legally accurate.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
Edited by - dfye@mcttelecom.com on 09/21/2011 07:45:55 AM |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 07:18:01 AM
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"HOWEVER - there is NO - I repeat - NO law in California or any other state that establishes this as the law."
Robert, please let me correct you on your post. There IS a law in New Hampshire that is clear in that you need to "positively identify the custodian." http://www.sos.nh.gov/Witnessing%20Signature%20Instructions.pdf
When notarizing any document, even if I do know the person, I include an individual acknowledgment in the package for my personal records that clearly show that the person I witnessed is who he or she says they are. If you have documents with extra identification in them, you are only setting that person up to establish a fake identity. A Notary must be satisified with the information received but that really is not enough. If you determine that a person's identity is correct and it turns out that it is not, you utlimately hold the bag in your hands. Oftentimes, it is something that can be easily fixed through the DMV. Even they can get it wrong on occasion. Documents can be challenged based upon false information and can cause a grave hardship to every party involved in its execution.
Just because the name is similar on the identification does not mean they truly are that person. Whenever I am in doubt I will ask the signer for a secondary form of ID such as a Social Security card. If that fails to match up, I then request a Birth Certificate. If one cannot be provided I DO NOT sign. Identity theft is a serious social problem and has destroyed many lives.
If you put in your Certificate the name you saw on their ID therein lies a problem because the information will not match the documents. This in itself can cause a huge problem for the borrower and the lender.
I implore every Notary to PLEASE make sure the name on a signer's ID matches what is on their documents. No exceptions should be made.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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Dannotary
California
265 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2011 : 10:03:18 AM
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Thanks for the responses. I've worked in different areas of this industry over the last 29 yrs and I know that title co's draw docs according to the way they find the names on title search and that names can change since the last time something was recorded due to marriage divorce etc.etc.Then WATA Grand Deeds can be done, or sign as aka, which cannot be an instruction from the notary- (practicing law). But as I have been saying, if it is the lenders requirement to collect and ID copy,they must do it before docs are drawn so they can anticipate and know how they are going to handle this discrepancy, not for the notary to be saddled with at the last moment when there is usually not anyone to consult with after hours etc.
Yes Kathy h is right. Jane D Smith (without listing Jones)as last name is not legal to notarize in CA- the Jones has to be on the documents because it is on the ID and THAT is the person who you are identifying and are on the hook to say is the person who appeared.
We cannot use 'corroborating' cards or papers like bank statements birth/jmarriage certs or anyhthing else,to notarize. ONLY DL, State issued ID card, or Passports, and the passports must bear the USA visa stamp with entry date. If Jane D. Smith is on the ID then she can sign Jane D. Smith, or J.D. Smith. If Jane D. Smith Jones is on the ID than she cannot sign just Jane D. Smith it has to include Jones too because it is the LAST , last name.
Kathy h, as far as the Grant Deeds go, it has to match ID and THEY are claiming the aka part. They sign the grant deed in the name that matches the ID but THEY claim that they are also known as Minnie Mouse its ok. Lots of lenders will try and chump the notary but having the order of the name opposite (the aka name claiming that they are the name on the ID . The name that appears first is the one who you are positively identifying.
l am only addressing my states requirements and laws. Just to make sure I am not crazy, I have consulted the NNA and Ca Sec of States Notary Division on this several times over. It is very clear- no wiggle room.
Linda H, A WElls Fargo agent recently toldl me that they draw docs according to the name as it appears on a document that also contains the Soc Sec # which he said was requirement for selling the loan. So there are 3 criterias going on here,1) what lender wants,2) what title co sees on title search,3) what the notary is left fumbling around with at the last moment and as you said, nobody has bothered take proper steps to update name. This is why I continue to tell everyone that lenders who need the ID copy MUST get it before docs are drawn so that any proper steps can be taken in advance.
Most of the time, the problem seems to be resolved for them by the Sig Name AFfidavit, and by the notary proceeding with filling out the acknowledgment with the name on the ID. |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 11:46:50 AM
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The CA Handbook doesn't seem to me to contain anything that demands the name on the ID identically match the document's varient. Law is written to be taken quite literally, not in the abstract. While the law requires the ID to be either current or issued w/in 5 years, it is utterly silent on the issue of name varient.
Here's a cut/paste from the Handbook section, with my own emphasis added:
When completing a certificate of acknowledgment or a jurat, a notary public is required to certify to the identity of the signer of the document. (Civil Code sections 1185(a), 1189, Government Code section 8202) Identity is established if the notary public is presented with satisfactory evidence of the signer’s identity. (Civil Code section 1185(a))
Satisfactory Evidence – “Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and (A) paper identification documents or (B) the oath of a single credible witness or (C) the oaths of two credible witnesses under penalty of perjury, as specified below:
A. Paper Identification Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the notary public’s reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents, if the
identification document is current or has been issued within five years (Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) & (4)):
1. An identification card or driver’s license issued by the California Department of Motor Vehicles; |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 05:31:26 AM
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I agree with you for the most part, Dan, but disagree with one portion of your post:
"I have ID discrepancies every week. It happens because in order to sell the loans they have to be drawn in a name that appears on a document that also contains the social security number like a soc sec card, but this name is not necessarily always the one that is on the DL/Passport/State ID card"
Not true - when it comes to real estate transactions, the docs are drawn in accordance with how title is vested in the property (and any subsequent changes through the years) - so if the Warranty Deed (or Grant Deed) conveys the property to Jane Doe Smith, and she subsequently gets married and adopts Smith-Jones as her last name (very common) she may change her DL to that but title to her property will remain in Jane Doe Smith - until proper steps are taken to change the name.
Thankfully, in Florida, we can state in our certs "Jane Doe Smith-Jones, who representated to me that she took title as Jane Doe Smith..." etc etc - covers these discrepancies that happen ALL the time down here...
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell |
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Dannotary
California
265 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 7:39:31 PM
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In Calif, identifying a signer is very specific. We may use ONLY certain ID's- and NOT in combination with other supporting IDs that are not approved for use as ID for notarizing purposes. It doesnt matter how reasonably sure the notary is. All gray areas have been removed.
Kathyh is right in the case she is speaking of. The name "JOnes" would have to appear on the doc and also have to be used on the notary certificate. As for the 'aka', that is what the borrower is claiming because the notary is notarizing only with the name that is on the ID.
As for the 'aka': example : John Smith aka John Jones, the ID is also John Smith, thats ok but not the other way around.
These days, I no longer stress when printed name on docs doesnt match the ID. On my certificates, the name that goes there is the name that is on the ID or less than but never different or more than.
I have ID discrepancies every week. It happens because in order to sell the loans they have to be drawn in a name that appears on a document that also contains the social security number like a soc sec card, but this name is not necessarily always the one that is on the DL/Passport/State ID card. Only some state have the ss# on the DL. The loan agents are all schmoozy with the borrowers and dont want to make any changes or 'problems' in the already difficult process. In short, the loan agents need to be the ones concerned about this issue because as far as I am concerned it is not my problem and the signing table is not the place to take issue with it. I just notarize in the name that is on the ID regardless of how what name they signed in. I am FED UP with this issue and not getting any support with it. It is useless to call anyone about it at the signing table. They never want anything changed and initialed-that doesnt work. Then they will try and convince the notary that its OK to notarize it in a wrong name because all the variations are listed on the Sig Affidavit, which is meaningless to the notary and offer the notary NO protection. Kathyh please call or e mail me anytime. |
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Maple
51 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 07:58:46 AM
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I agree with FlaNotary about part A.
As for part B, can a person have more than one legal name at the same time? I think that's unclear. Sure, you can find laws that suggest there is only one at a time, such as the REAL ID law, but I don't know if that applies in all states and all situations. (In fact, I'm not at all sure the REAL ID law is even constitutional, it might be an unconstitutional usurpation by the feds of state powers.)
A closely related question is can a notary sign for a person using an assumed name (one they assume in addition to their legal name, such as Samuel Clemens being known as Mark Twain). I don't know. It doesn't seem like a capacity to me (if it is an alias for a natural person, not a name for a company). Of course, in California, you can't use personal knowledge and have a bunch of other restrictions, so it is unlikely the person could present acceptable proof of the alias. |
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FlaNotary
Florida
59 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 03:39:00 AM
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A. Yes, it is legal. There is a general consensus amongst some notaries that a "more but not less" method should be applied (i.e. the ID must have more names than the name on the document, but vice versa is inacceptable). HOWEVER - there is NO - I repeat - NO law in California or any other state that establishes this as the law. In your example, I would not hesitate to notarize. I think you should have. The whole idea is that the NOTARY must be satisfied, based on the documents presented, that the person standing before them is the person named in the document. Whatever method you use to come to that conclusion is your prerogative. I keep it simple - if a person presents me with a D/L, the photo bears a true likeness of the individual, the signature matches, often times the address will be listed in the document which matches the D/L, and the names are reasonably similar, THAT leads ME to conclude that they are one and the same person. Some don't agree, but that is how I do it. And until a legislative mandate dictates otherwise, I will continue to do it this way.
B. Yes you can notarize, but in your certificate you should only list their current name based on their ID. I do not believe you are allowed to include "aka"s in your California certificates because it constitutes capacity.
Robert T. Koehler
Notary Public of the State of Florida
State-Approved Official Notary Educator
Commissioner of Deeds in the Bahamas and New Hampshire
Certified Loan Signing Agent
AAWO-Accredited Wedding Officiant
Weddings: www.NotaryWeddings.com
Classes: www.NotaryAcademy.org
Nothing in the foregoing post is to be construed as legal advice. I am not an
attorney licensed to practice law in any state and can not give legal advice or
accept fees for legal advice. |
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n/a
1 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2010 : 10:11:18 PM
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Part A--If the client's name on DL is-Jane (first) Doe (middle) Smith Jones (two last names).
But the client's name on documents is-Jane D. Smith (without listing Jones) is it legal to sign for them in the state of CA? I have been told it is not legal. The very last name "Jones" has to be on the documents.
I have been asked to sign the client on the Grant Deed only using only the first part of the last name ie-Jane D. Smith (without the Jones). Should I have?
I have had 3 signings in the past 2 weeks with differing names on documents compared to DL's or passports. Please let me know what you think.
Part B--If the Grant Deed has the persons name listed but also states that they are known by an aka and lists the aka but the client has no verification to show me for the aka should I still notarize that document? I would think I had to have verification of the alias from the borrower as well since that name is listed (by the lender) on the acknowledgment I'm to notarize.
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Full name on Dl vs Docs
