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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
 Posted - 03/27/2008 : 3:16:45 PM
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Folks, let's remember there is a distinction between the date on documents and the notarization date. The borrower can write any date they choose to write (IMHO) anywhere - backdating refers to using any date (forward or backward) other than the current date by the notary.
Just last week Columbus (with his ship's master's photo ID) had me notarize his claim to the Americas. He dated it May 1st, 1492 - that is the document date. No problem to me. I notarized his signature using the date he appeared before me on acknowledgement.
Ken |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 3:08:37 PM
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Thanks Vince. I went into the link and found it to be informative.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 2:03:27 PM
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Where does Regulation Z come from?
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 1:30:37 PM
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Please see the following sections from Regulation Z. The part regarding waiver is highlighted in RED :
(d) Effects of rescission. (1) When a consumer rescinds a transaction, the security interest giving rise to the right of rescission becomes void, and the consumer shall not be liable for any amount, including any finance charge.
(2) Within 20 calendar days after receipt of a notice of rescission, the creditor shall return any money or property that has been given to anyone in connection with the transaction and shall take any action necessary to reflect the termination of the security interest.
(3) If the creditor has delivered any money or property, the consumer may retain possession until the creditor has met its obligation under paragraph (d)(2) of this section. When the creditor has complied with that paragraph, the consumer shall tender the money or property to the creditor or, where the latter would be impracticable or inequitable, tender its reasonable value. At the consumer's option, tender of property may be made at the location of the property or at the consumer's residence. Tender of money must be made at the creditor's designated place of business. If the creditor does not take possession of the money or property within 20 calendar days after the consumer's tender, the consumer may keep it without further obligation.
(4) The procedures outlined in paragraphs (d)(2) and (3) of this section may be modified by court order.
(e) Consumer's waiver of right to rescind. (1) The consumer may modify or waive the right to rescind if the consumer determines that the extension of credit is needed to meet a bona fide personal financial emergency. To modify or waive the right, the consumer shall give the creditor a dated written statement that describes the emergency, specifically modifies or waives the right to rescind, and bears the signature of all the consumers entitled to rescind. Printed forms for this purpose are prohibited, except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section.
(2) The need of the consumer to obtain funds immediately shall be regarded as a bona fide personal financial emergency provided that the dwelling securing the extension of credit is located in an area declared during June through September 1993, pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 5170, to be a major disaster area because of severe storms and flooding in the Midwest. 36a In this instance, creditors may use printed forms for the consumer to waive the right to rescind. This exemption to paragraph (e)(1) of this section shall expire one year from the date an area was declared a major disaster.
(3) The consumer's need to obtain funds immediately shall be regarded as a bona fide personal financial emergency provided that the dwelling securing the extension of credit is located in an area declared during June through September 1994 to be a major disaster area, pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 5170, because of severe storms and flooding in the South. 36b In this instance, creditors may use printed forms for the consumer to waive the right to rescind. This exemption to paragraph (e)(1) of this section shall expire one year from the date an area was declared a major disaster.
(4) The consumer's need to obtain funds immediately shall be regarded as a bona fide personal financial emergency provided that the dwelling securing the extension of credit is located in an area declared during October 1994 to be a major disaster area, pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 5170, because of severe storms and flooding in Texas. 36c In this instance, creditors may use printed forms for the consumer to waive the right to rescind. This exemption to paragraph (e)(1) of this section shall expire one year from the date an area was declared a major disaster.
(f) Exempt transactions. The right to rescind does not apply to the following:
(1) A residential mortgage transaction.
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 09:16:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlebreeze
The RTC CAN be waived if there's an emergency, a letter is presented to the lender, and the lender agrees. Google RTC, Waiver.
Can you be a bit more specific as to the source of your post. When I Google "RTS, Waiver" I get thousands of possibilities.
Personally, I doubt if the RTC can be nullified (even by mutual agreement) - some "rights" just cant be "given away" - are you referring to funding prior to the recession date? That certainly is an option for the lending institution - but the RTC would still exist and create possible complications - if invoked by the borrower.
Ken |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 09:16:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlebreeze
The RTC CAN be waived if there's an emergency, a letter is presented to the lender, and the lender agrees. Google RTC, Waiver.
Can you be a bit more specific as to the source of your post. When I Google "RTS, Waiver" I get thousands of possibilities.
Personally, I doubt if the RTC can be nullified (even by mutual agreement) - some "rights" just cant be "given away" - are you referring to funding prior to the recession date? That certainly is an option for the lending institution - but the RTC would still exist and create possible complications - if invoked by the borrower.
Ken |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 06:03:51 AM
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| Had this issue twice last week. Checked with the different title companies on each. One had the "short" name corrected and initialed and the other had the bo write the full name instead of the short version with no correction. Fortunatly, the ID's covered the full name on all. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 04:23:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfye@mcttelecom.com
I am with you on this one Renee. Sign exactly as you see it. Utilize the a/k/a for variations.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services
Murphy's third corollary: For every good approach, there is an obstruction.
What to do in the case cited (Johnny B Good, John Good) when; as is often the case; an AKA is NOT included?
Ken |
Edited by - edelske on 03/27/2008 04:26:30 AM |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 09:55:48 AM
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I am with you on this one Renee. Sign exactly as you see it. Utilize the a/k/a for variations.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 07:50:39 AM
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Ahhh - gotcha. Yep, I see that particular issue all the time - title one way and lender another. I have them sign as each doc has been prepared, and I add each name variant used to all a/k/a's in the pkg, regardless of whose it is (lender and/or title)
So - Title doc printed "Joe Smith", signed "Joe Smith"
Lender doc printed "Joe C. Smith", signed "Joe C. Smith"
A/K/A - make sure each variant of the name is represented
Title docs ARE copied and sent with pkg to lender, some will stay in loan file, lender will want those variant signatures 'covered' by having them linked together via the A/K/A.
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 06:23:52 AM
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Renee,
I think I did a poor job in bringing up the issue I was trying to raise. Let me try again.
The borrower signs his name neatly and readable.
The bank docs say "Johnny B. Good"
The title Co. docs say "John Good"
thus the docs sent to ME differ.
Should Mr. Good sign as preprinted (under the line) - thus with variation - or in a consistant manner - if so - how should he sign?
Ken |
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Renee
Michigan
549 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 04:24:14 AM
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My initial post was pretty wordy, as I tried to offer my best and most all-inclusive opinions to a pretty complicated topic. To address one little part taken out of context would just mean having to pretty much repeat the entire post.
Key to the whole signature issue, I think, are these 2 points:
1. A person's signature is not TEXT, it is a MARK that stands for text, it is in essence a .tif or .gif file, not a .txt file.
2. It is also an algebra equation, and one that the borrower computes. B says "THIS [.gif] stands for/equals THIS [.txt of name]. It is the equation that must remain consistantly 'true'. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 7:32:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Renee
When you ask him to sign that ONE piece of paper DIFFERENTLY, you negate the signatures on all the rest of the documents. For some reason, people do this all the time.
Consistancy would be great IF - there is consistancy in the pre-printed name UNDER the signature line. VERY often the name varies (usually only in inclusion/omission of middle initial) between the BANK and the TITLE CO docs. This is very common. The general rule is to have docs signed as preprinted - so - which do you feel takes priority? Signing as preprinted or signing consistantly. If the latter use the BANK or TITLE CO variation?
I doubt if there is a always right answer - my approach is to have them sign as preprinted - and if it varies between the two sources - so be it. But, I am sure open to suggestions on a better way.....
Ken |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 5:19:52 PM
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New York Law says:
§175.40 Issuing a false certificate.
A person is guilty of issuing a false certificate when, being a public servant authorized by law to make or issue official certificates or other official written instruments, and with intent to defraud, deceive or injure another person, he issues such an instrument, or makes the same with intent that it be issued, knowing that it contains a false statement or false information. Issuing a false certificate is a class E felony.
ps: class E felony = max of 4 years
Ken |
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n/a
Virginia
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2008 : 3:35:27 PM
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| I work for a lender as a closer. The rate has to be good on the day the loan funds or disburses. Often a LO can get a one day extension. Typically the policy in the industry is that it cost them .125% in points or cost to the loan fee to extend for 7 days. If the wait until the lock is actually expired before they request the extension then it usually goes to the worst case pricing which is usually the current market rate. Anyway, policies will vary depending on the lender and the business relationship. |
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civey
North Carolina
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 10:28:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dawn
I once had a rainy Friday night signing in a Friendly's where the borrower refused to sign because the LO told her she would have a lower interest rate than what was on the docs. We talked in detail about the RTC and she called her dad who advised her not to sign. No problem - Signing Company appreciated effort etc and I would be paid a print/trip fee. Monday morning the LO calls me stating that due to circumstances he could not get her the rate he "promised" her and the rate on her loan expired Friday and she was willing to back date. I called the company that hired me and they were adament that I not do it. As it was explained to me by a notary I know, if at some point she found herself in a bad situation it could back to haunt me. I did look up her mortgage and the LO have someone back date it. Oh, and he told me that he use to work for Ameriquest and they did that all time. Not me.
This sounds really fishy. The rule to my knowledge is that the rate has to be in effect until it funds, which means the RTC days count. Example: 30 day lock which would expire on 3/30 means the loan would have to be signed on the 27th, if all dates fall on a work day. Sounds to me like the LO was trying to get himself out of a mess and took a hit for it. They may have backdated the loan for no reason. She may have gotten the rate she wanted, but the LO took a hit on the back end to save face. |
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dawn
Pennsylvania
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 05:25:07 AM
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| I once had a rainy Friday night signing in a Friendly's where the borrower refused to sign because the LO told her she would have a lower interest rate than what was on the docs. We talked in detail about the RTC and she called her dad who advised her not to sign. No problem - Signing Company appreciated effort etc and I would be paid a print/trip fee. Monday morning the LO calls me stating that due to circumstances he could not get her the rate he "promised" her and the rate on her loan expired Friday and she was willing to back date. I called the company that hired me and they were adament that I not do it. As it was explained to me by a notary I know, if at some point she found herself in a bad situation it could back to haunt me. I did look up her mortgage and the LO have someone back date it. Oh, and he told me that he use to work for Ameriquest and they did that all time. Not me. |
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edelske
New York
815 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 6:17:14 PM
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I simply ask the "backdate" requester to write their request on their letterhead stationary, in detail, sign it; and fax it to me for my records. Aint happened yet - if it did I would send it to their state attorney general's office. End problem. It is a crime to ask me to commit a crime. I dont take that lightly.
Ken
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Stamper
North Carolina
17 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 10:45:35 AM
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Hey there, "Stamper" here -- I actually started this thread a looong time ago. I was new at this (I suppose I still am) and I had been asked to do this many times. The state notary class I attended didn't cover this, and I really thought it was ok if everyone consented. After all, I could ensure that the signer was who they claim to be, and that's my job.
"lkassis" answered my question first. Backdating circumvents federal law.
Since then, several companies have contacted me and requested this from me, and I always refuse. I have found that the companies that order closings sometimes have bad people. I only regret that I once lost a good client because I willing to backdate documents, believing that it was ok to do.
Thank you for helping me, those of you with helpful comments!
- Stamper |
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drogers
California
9 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 10:27:52 AM
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Recently I had a company form North Carolina ask me to pre date 2 sets of loan docs. I'm in California. I thought that odd as usually they want you to backdate. And I had never heard of this. I thought maybe this is something they do there. After doing a little research and calling a friend thats a Notary here in my area I learned this as bad as backdating. I find it amazing what these loan companies want us to do. 
drogers |
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dfye@mcttelecom.com
New Hampshire
681 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2007 : 06:08:12 AM
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NEVER BACK DATE. You are at risk as a notary. It is not legal.
Legal Eagle Para Professional Services |
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joanbergst
California
360 Posts |
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jbelmont
California
3106 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2007 : 11:55:28 AM
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| I'm answering this old post to revitalize it since it was so popular. |
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Kate
California
8 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2007 : 10:46:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by notarydi
What do you do when the name is different throughout the package; for instance, when the lender docs have one version and the title docs have another?
I have had borrower's names shown 4 different ways in one set of loan docs. I have them sign as it is printed on each document and then list all the names on the Signature/Name Affidavit. Newver had a problem. |
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Stamper
North Carolina
17 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 8:52:02 PM
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Here's the situation . . . .
A North Carolina signing agent is asked to notarize loan documents with yesterday's date so that all the document dates will match. No one is trying to do anything underhanded. The borrower understands that his 3 day "right of recission" is going to be cut by a day, but he's ok with that because he wants his cash a day sooner.
No one is trying to create a false alibi with the fake date. It's merrly a matter of not having to create new documentation.
Is this illegal? Is is immoral? Is it possible the notary can lose his or her commission?
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Topic |
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Dear Signing Agents,
backdating
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