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  2 people liked this post.
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n/a
Washington
2 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2009 : 11:03:28 PM
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I get what you are saying now PWinFL :) Thanks for the clarification. I see that you are differentiating "profit" with overall net earnings. I honestly had not thought about it in that sense and rather was thinking about just the net income. I can see both you and Vince have a well throughout and developed model in which you are operating.
I was trying to take into account all of my expenses but did not think about investments in the business which in my method of calculation would increase the marginal cost of each signing. In my mind my "net" was all I needed to worry about, but truly if this will be a "business" for the long term I will need to rethink how I view this endeavour. Thank you for your insights!
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 6:22:45 PM
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I would agree that a corporation is not required. I already had mine set up for many years due to different work. Even with that, an accountant advised originally that the sole prop was the best route. Then changed his mind when finally looking at the business deductions associated primarily with the cost of health insurance for the two employees and me at that time.
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 3:39:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by vince
Based upon comments made regarding the setting of fees, many seem to be simply looking at income minus direct expenses associated with the work and then assuming the remainder, if any, is income (and calling that income profit). Then again, maybe I'm totally wrong.
I agree. Many, if not most, signing agents do not treat this as business and are not working with a business model. As you said, gross pay minus tangible expense (gas, paper and toner) equals profit. We are running a professional services business. It should be treated as such.
IMO, a signing agent doesn't need to incorporate to act as a professional business organization. Most signing agents that I know are sole proprietors. Even some of those have a business plan (let's face it, it is a business) and work like a business.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
Edited by - PWinFL on 10/10/2009 5:54:56 PM |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 2:21:35 PM
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Yes, a corporation does include salaries before profit is considered (in fact, my business is a "C" Corp). But, based upon observations, most notaries do not seem to be incorporated. In would be interesting to know how many are following a general business plan.
Based upon comments made regarding the setting of fees, many seem to be simply looking at income minus direct expenses associated with the work and then assuming the remainder, if any, is income (and calling that income profit). Then again, maybe I'm totally wrong.
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 11:14:45 AM
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Whenever you figure profit in a business model, you always have to exclude salaries, pay and benefits for the employees. You really don't think that the profits the oil companies, pharmaceuticals, insurance companies, etc. are posting is before pay and benefits are deducted.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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vince
Kansas
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 10:25:18 AM
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| Paul, After you indicated expenses at 72% you said "leaving $15,600 or $300/wk take home spending money." That may create a bit of confusion over the numbers you presented (adding cost of labor) as some might be considering one or the other. But, maybe one is fixed and the other is variable in your viewpoint? |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 06:08:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joz00
I am too curious about the figures that PWinFL posted about the actual costs of each assignment. 70% seems awfully high to me.
In my own calculations my per signing cost comes out to around $35 - $40 or so per signing. This includes tangible realized costs such as paper, toner, misc office supplies, as well as taxes such as local B&O, Self Employment tax (realized only on the amount of the fee above my notarization costs), and federal income tax at my effective bracket. I did include car maint & gas as well amortized over all of the signings in a year.
You missed two extremely important "costs" in your figures. Probably the most important one is how much of that fee is your labor? Unless you work for free, then even at minimum wages ($7.25/hr) there is about $22 in labor. (That alone is a 22% hit on a hundred dollar assignment!) Add in your 'shared' costs (electric, amortization of equipment, cooling/heating, etc.) too. And don't forget that in any business, you need to put funds back into the business for upgrades and unexpected expenses. One major unexpected expense, especially when dealing with questionable service providers, is the real issue that you may not get paid a dime for an assignment. So you have to calculate in your bad debt possibilities.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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n/a
Washington
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 10:21:44 PM
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Hello all,
New to this board and so far you all have been a tremendous resource! I've appreciated all of the insights and information provided. I have in the past done signings here and there in my spare time but recently am focusing all of my efforts on building a steady business as I lost my primary full time job.
I am too curious about the figures that PWinFL posted about the actual costs of each assignment. 70% seems awfully high to me.
In my own calculations my per signing cost comes out to around $35 - $40 or so per signing. This includes tangible realized costs such as paper, toner, misc office supplies, as well as taxes such as local B&O, Self Employment tax (realized only on the amount of the fee above my notarization costs), and federal income tax at my effective bracket. I did include car maint & gas as well amortized over all of the signings in a year.
On $100 fee that comes out to 35-40%, on $125 fee that comes out to 28-32%, and on $150 fee that comes out to 23-26% of the total fee. Are my calculations totally off base? It does bring to light the need to not undercut myself in order to "take home" an acceptable amount. |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 10:33:33 AM
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| conservatively speaking, if your taxes and expenses equal 70% of your earnings, why in the world would you even bother? On average, gas and paper are 5.00 per job. Which is deductible of course, as is gas and other expenses you may incur. Even if taxes totaled 40%, State, Federal etc.. take home is 600.00 based on 1000.00 per week. I'm assuming that you have another job to supplement this one, otherwise how could you live on 300.00 or even the 150.00 per week based on the estimates you just gave me? How many signings does the average agent do per year? |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 07:25:34 AM
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IIRC, you're in NJ. It seems NJ is one of the better places to be right now, as there seems to be more work for NSA's there. I'm in a very rural area in FL, coupled with a "retirement" population (average age is 54), so there really isn't a lot of work here.
As to how much money can you make... that's up to you and how much work is available. Using your own figures of 2 jobs a day, each work day, that comes to 520 jobs a year (260 work days per year). At $100 average per job, that would be $52,000 per year. Conservatively estimating that expenses will probably be about 70% of your fee, or $36,400 (gas, oil, vehicle maintenance, taxes, supplies, etc. etc. etc.) leaving $15,600 or $300/wk take home spending money. That sounds good. But do you really think you will be doing 2 jobs a day every day? I doubt it. I would estimate in reality, you would be doing fine if you did half that, or living on $150/wk. Not a substantial income at all, because we all have expenses over and above the business expenses. Such as food, medical and mortgage.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 06:00:39 AM
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Out of 75 signings I've had 2 readers. The first spent over an hour while the other took 45 minutes as I mentioned. Depending on the packet size Im always done within an hour. That's not my problem. It's getting two done in a relatively close timeframe. As far as not being able to make a living, on average, how much can you make in a year?
Do most signing agents have two jobs? Thanks. |
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 05:50:34 AM
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An average signing shouldn't take more than an hour at the table. You need to develop a "spiel" when presenting the documents to the borrower for signature. Covering the items that may cause conflicts first (HUD, Note, TIL and first payment letter) saves a lot of time with the rest of the 'junk'. Be sure to emphasize the RTC right off the bat, and refer to it whenever there seems to be a problem that needs to be corrected, unless immediate Loan Office attention is needed. After 75 signings, you should have a feel for what needs to be done.
As for making a living at this, don't count on it. It's nice supplemental income, but in today's environment, it is difficult to make a good living at it. Remember, $150 signing fee isn't all pocket money. You have to figure all (and I mean ALL) expenses to make sure you're covering them and making a profit.
I didn't mean to frighten you away from title companies, but just remember that if you make a mistake, many times you will never know about it. Signing Services will often assist you with questions. Title companies typically don't have the time to offer too much help; they simply want results.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 8:41:33 PM
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Sorry, I did mean w-9, not a w2. I am fairly new to the business with about 75 signings to my credit. I know it's not many, but I have to say that I have not made one mistake yet but it really has to do with the time I take with each signing. This is one of the reasons I can't figure out how notaries do 4-5 signings per day. My average is around three hours. Even the closings in my home county always seem to get the person who reads for 45 minutes before signing one document. I totally enjoy going out and meeting different people and really hope that I can make a decent living doing this. After losing my job of over 30 years, I decided to try something new which would allow me the freedom to be my own boss. So far, it's been OK, but I really have to figure out how to move jobs around which would allow me to do at least 2 per day. I get enough calls to do that, but the times are so close that I'm afraid I won't be able to do it. As far as staying away from title companies, I'm not worried about making a mistake because they may be less forgiving. I figure either way, if I make a mistake, neither the signing or title company would be to thrilled, which is why If if did make an error, at least I know it was for more money. |
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 3:41:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Newnotary
I don't mean anything by it. Signing companies require a w-2, title companies do not. Title companies pay higher fees as opposed to signing companies. Can you recommend any title companies which deal directly with signing agents as opposed to using a signing company as a middle man? thanks.
Jeremy has compiled a list of companies here based on posts and feedback by members. I believe it's a combination of both title companies and signing services. You might check that out.
Good Luck.
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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PWinFL
Florida
469 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 11:25:21 AM
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Form W-2 is used to report earnings to employees. I think you mean a Form W-9. Signing services and title companies will ask you for a W-9. It's just that signing services usually ask you up front before you actually do any work. Title companies, especially if they have paid you more than $600 (and not listing you on the HUD), will ask you for a W-9 towards the end of the year because they need to prepare 1099's to mail out and to notify the IRS. Signing services too are required to prepare and send you a 1099 if you were paid more than $600.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but using a W-9 and 1099 as a bellweather isn't a valid approach, imo.
If you are new notary, as indicated by your handle/username, signing up with title companies could prove disastrous. Title companies have little patience with those who make mistakes, and newcomers are prone to errors until they learn the ropes. If you are in fact new to this industry, I suggest you stick with the signing services until you get a significant amount of closings under your belt.
Never drive any faster than your guardian angel can fly.
I am not an attorney licensed to practice law in the State of Florida,
and I may not give legal advice or accept fees for legal advice.
Visit us online at http://www.PAWnotary.com |
Edited by - PWinFL on 07/31/2009 11:32:17 AM |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 10:53:38 AM
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| I don't mean anything by it. Signing companies require a w-2, title companies do not. Title companies pay higher fees as opposed to signing companies. Can you recommend any title companies which deal directly with signing agents as opposed to using a signing company as a middle man? thanks. |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 10:51:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by LindaH
"I would prefer to work with title companies because of the 1099 issue "
Curious what you mean by this.
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
I don't mean anything by it. Signing companies require a w-2 and title companies do not. I prefer to deal with a title company because fees are higher than what signing companies offer. Can you recommend the names of any title companies that deal directly with notaries as opposed to dealing with signing companies instead? |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 4:02:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LindaH
"I would prefer to work with title companies because of the 1099 issue "
Curious what you mean by this.
I don't mean anything by it. I was just saying that signing companies send you a 1099 if you make over 600.00 and since title companies pay more, I'd prefer to deal with them directly, by cutting out the middle man.
Linda
www.notarydepot.com/notary/lindah
http://www.notary.net/websites/LindaHubbell
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LindaH
Florida
1754 Posts |
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Newnotary
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 09:01:48 AM
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| I'm in NJ and have contacted many companies looking for signing jobs. I have a few who call on a steady basis, but many who never call at all. I would prefer to work with title companies because of the 1099 issue but once again, it's tough to get started and I'm not sure which way to turn. Any advice or names of recommended companies would be appreciated. thanks. |
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