CA - missing legal descriptions in Trust Deeds

Printed from: Mobile Notary / Signing Agent Discussion Forum
Topic URL: http://www.123notary.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=533
Printed on: 05/20/2024

Topic:

Topic author: PeterLusby
Subject: CA - missing legal descriptions in Trust Deeds
Posted on: 12/13/2006 10:16:40 AM
Message:

I'd like to know how other notaries are handling this one.

California Government Code §8205 provides that

A notary public may not notarize a document which is incomplete.
If presented with a document for notarization, which the notary
public knows from his or her experience to be incomplete or is
without doubt on its face incomplete, the notary public must
refuse to notarize the document. (CGC §8205)

I'd estimate that a good 75% of the loan packages I get have a place holder for "Exhibit A - Legal Description", but no actual legal description. The Deed of Trust is thus "...without doubt on its face incomplete..." When I call escrow to complain, they treat me like I'm a complete idiot, and they are all experts. If I refuse to complete the signing, I lose clients. If I don't, I risk losing my commission. Talk about "between a rock and a hard place".

Anyone up for a general strike of all California notaries - no more incomplete Trust Deeds?

Regards
Peter

Replies:

Reply author: Renee
Replied on: 12/13/2006 6:11:32 PM
Message:

MI recently removed the 'no blanks in docs'stipulation from the Notary Act - and I am in COMPLETE agreement with that. We notarize SIGNATURES, not documents - and with an acknowledgment, we are not taking an oath on the factual accuracy of the document - most, if not all DOT's/mtgs are acknowledgments. There might be times when a blank could pose obvious issues - for example, a Will that says "I leave my yacht to blank". I don't believe the law ever intended or foresaw becoming a cog in the wheel of loan closings, and I'll bet that played a part in MI removing it.

Title is responsible for recording the mtg against the correct property, identified by the legal description. Title is INSURING that the recording is correct. The Title recorder is charged with attaching the legal to the mtg, and then having it recorded.

Title is capable of sending you the legal - they have it in their computer system, can print and send. They usually will, if you ask them to - Why don't they do it automatically? BECAUSE - that document is so absolutely crucial, that when the recorder gets the signed mtg back from you, they will pull that file from their system and print the legal, and attach. THAT is the most efficient & ACCURATE way to insure it is correct.

While Title will send it to you, they'll also most likely REMOVE whatever comes back, and RE-PRINT (unless it's a simple Lot/Sub). The reason is - it takes two people to verify the accuracy of a lengthy legal (one reads the copy while the other follows from the file), and it takes time, and STILL there's that slim potential for error. When it comes to recording against the correct property - the title company goes to tremendous lengths to remove error margins, since THEY are directly liable.

The Title examiner is the person who insures or actually places the legal description into the computer system, in the 'file' of each transaction; the information is obtained directly from the Deed of record.

So - understanding the reasons behind the general practice, you can see it is NOT because someone is 'lazy' or not doing their job, or because someone intends anyone harm. It is SO crucial, it just can't be sent out by the processor to the closing, scanned here and faxed there and passed through various hands - to land back on their desk and have them ASSUME it's the same one THEY sent, hasn't been ALTERED, etc. Only one clean way to INSURE accuracy - pull up file, print, attach, record. (Again, verifying a short 'lot/sub' legal is a little less risky.)

As far as deciding what YOU should do - that's your decision. I just offer this info to enable you to better understand the process, who's liable, what's at risk and what those risks are - so that you don't need to be treated "like an idiot" lol Have you ever queried the CA SOS directly about this specific issue?

Reply author: dfye@mcttelecom.com
Replied on: 12/13/2006 10:46:42 PM
Message:

Exhibit A comes up quite a bit in my mentoring of notaries. I actually had to contact the lawyer who wrote the notary laws in New Hampshire on that one. If the signing is a new purchase, that is where you want to be sure there is an Exhibit A in the package. A refi, equity, reverse mortgage, etc. already has an Exhibit A in place even if it is not included in the closing package.

Legal Eagle Para Professional Services

Reply author: Vlambert
Replied on: 02/22/2007 12:56:09 AM
Message:

Do California Notaries actually Notarized the Legal Description? Here in Nevada it is an attachment.

Virginia Lambert

Reply author: Shannon
Replied on: 02/22/2007 07:57:37 AM
Message:

Going a different direction with your topic...how do you as a notary really "know" that the document is incomplete without the exhibit A? My point is this: If you are a broker or an attorney or even an escrow officer, you might have specialized knowledge of such things but as an NSA you do not prepare or produce documents unless you wear one of those other hats. By reading this forum I might be led to believe that a DOT must have an exhibit A in order to be complete (and that may or may not be true). But, as an NSA with no other legal training, I really don't "know" that the document is incomplete. If I don't know it, I can't truly believe it....

Just a thought on how to cope........

Reply author: Kelly
Replied on: 02/22/2007 10:23:37 PM
Message:

Peter - it's okay to notarize a Deed in CA that does not have the Exhibit with the document - it will not record without it, so be assured that eventually the property description will accompany the Deed. If you refuse to notarize Deeds without the prop description, you will not be called any more my friend.

Renee is right on regarding this issue and think about this too: When you notarize page 15 of 15, you're done. The exhibit or Addendum or Atchmt is not numbered and not a part of what you are notarizing anyhow. Hope that makes sense!

Kelly Robertson
CA Notary Education Instructor

Reply author: crtowles
Replied on: 02/23/2007 01:27:11 AM
Message:

Thank you Renee, Kelly and Shannon!

There are many notaries that refuse to notarize without the Exhibit A. This has been discussed to death on other forums and there are some that truly believe that if it is missing that they must not notarize; period. And in turn they feel the need to hassle the title company for it (and they wonder why they don't have any work) But, I'm with you Kelly, if all the pages are numbered and contains no blanks then it should be a go. It is not our job to interpret documents. And as you say it will not record without it.

And as Shannon suggests..if I am just the notary how do I know what is missing and what is not? As long as I have sequential numbers and notarize properly I have done my duty. IMO, this is why we have so many attorney states and more projected in the future because we as notories are crossing to many lines.

~Carmen

Reply author: Shannon
Replied on: 02/23/2007 03:40:12 AM
Message:

Yikes Carmen! Don't scare me! I don't have anywhere near a law degree (nor do I want one). But if we (ca) were to become an attorney state I guess I'd have to go back to Fast-food management....

Let me tell ya, THAT'S SCARY!!!!!

Reply author: crtowles
Replied on: 02/24/2007 04:15:02 AM
Message:

lol, I am with you Shannon. If I had to go back to a 8-5 as we know it, I would just absolutely die. I love my work here with Jeremy and I get to work occasionally as signer for a few wonderful folks. Life doesn't get any better than that.

Happy Stamping!

Reply author: Joe Ewing
Replied on: 03/17/2007 01:34:12 AM
Message:

If I had opened up that career ending can of worms 9 years ago I would not be a NSA today.

I attended a Notary meeting recently and had to listen to some old grizzled vetern Notary who felt the need to give us all an experienced "piece of her mind" regarding this HUGE (in her mind) non-issue. I have to say when some individuals get a passion for something it can get out of hand. Her stories about her walking out of signings because the SA wasn't there made me cringe. I just nodded and wispered to myself STFU.

Reply author: Shannon
Replied on: 03/17/2007 01:56:32 AM
Message:

Made me chuckle on a Saturday.......good stuff!


Oops almost forgot my green.........

Reply author: Kelly
Replied on: 03/20/2007 9:08:39 PM
Message:

LOL Joe!

Kelly Robertson
CA Notary Education Instructor

Reply author: crtowles
Replied on: 03/21/2007 02:19:42 AM
Message:

Ditto on the lol Joe.....

C

Mobile Notary / Signing Agent Discussion Forum : http://www.123notary.com/forum/